Organic or inorganic system of cultivation?

Moderator note: Topic split from a related topic

Ramu you keep fluctuation between organic rice and inorganic chemicals for Moringa with too much comfort and ease…

which means you have no much faith in organic…

you could loose you organic certification with chemical use… and not get it back for 3 years…

our chalta hai attitude has to go… its not reasonable or logical to use bomb making chemicals in agriculture…

My only prayer is that these chemicals are not landing up on your dining table and drinking water…

Not only the people who eat from such plants but also the cattle also suffer…

There is a good explanation here why not to use such stuff:
southlandorganics.com/blogs … fertilizer

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10371046

Thank you my dear budding farmer …Of course you are right and I respect your views and principle in strictly adhering to organic production and consumption that is good for all the living things on our mother earth…

Organic is a holy subject that entails lot of things that are lying around us ,both visible and invisible . It takes millions of years to conclude with definitive idea what is organic .So leading this subject in the name of deliberation seems like walking on the road that leads to great  universe that no one knows where it ends …

However I wish to brief you about few points only for our understanding

In respect of bomb making chemicals that you mean to be Nitrate , i wish to explain here

Pottassium Nitrate is a synthetic fertilizer …KNO3 is  chemical formula .It is when applied to soil gets disassociated into Pottassium and Nitrate respectively being in the ionic form K+( Cation )  and NO3- ( anion )

Where as the dead plants and animal remains when added to soil get decomposed and long chain molecules like , carbohydrates  protein and lipids are broken down into smaller molecule and on further chemical reaction in the soil environment liberates compounds like NH4 that upon nitrification  is converted into NO3 ( Nitrate- same bomb chemicals ) and the plant roots are taking and using these nutrients since hundreds of millions of years before the advent of human being on this earth just about 10,000 years ago…

Plants takes its nutrients requirement in the form of ions like Ca++, Mg++, K+, H2PO4-,Cl-,NO3-, NH4-, SO4-,Zn++,CU++ all in the ionic form …The plant does not know where the nitrate is coming from ( whether from bomb or from dead animal or dead plants )

But it is the question of indiscriminate use of any chemicals in the environment that concerns and question human existence on earth . In America ,it is about less than 5% of the population that are doing farming that too mechanized cultivation in over large scale say hundreds of acres …They inject lot of chemicals into soil to control nematodes , they do arial spray of poisonous pesticides from aircraft and they are combining so many pesticides in a single application to any particular crop .This of course is a problem…

Where as India is a poor consumer of synthetic fertilizers when compared to other countries .Here in India , we are starving for water .When monsoon fails , drought press our farmer to commit suicide and when heavy rain cause flood , it directly devastate the cultivated crops and kills people in large numbers .More over good monsoon comes once in 10 or 30 years cycle . All lakes, rivers , ponds and water bodies remain dry for many decades .Some villager could not locate some missing rivers in their area of residence .Natural vegetation dwindled from 33% of earlier area to less than 15% now .Cattle population that were enormous in number in India disappeared fast . The Farmyard manure ( cattle manure ) that were once sold @ Rs.50 or 100 is selling @ 4000 to 5000 rupees now .

A fertile soil should have atleast 5%  organic matter in soil .Where as Majority of Indian soil has below 0.5% organic matter . 1 acre of topsoil  is having 1875 MT of soil .5% of this should be organic matter ie, 94 MT …but @0.5 or 1% soil organic matter in our present soil it is about 4.7 to 9.4 MT …But our recommendation per acre is around 10 MT that too is insufficient to make soil rich and fertile.

So there is no need to completely accept foreigners version of organic or conventional pattern of farming .It is the question of survival of fittest for farmers in India .We are not using so much fertilizers like them .Also we are not using so much of poisonous pesticides .We use just around 0.25 ml to 2 ml pesticide per litre of water .However It is some private pesticide selling companies that are cheating innocent farmers and selling more chemicals for single spray that are most of the time irrelevant and unnecessary and pollute both soil and food produce and also adjoining river and water bodies through leaching …

So I am taking middle path that does neither  produce poisonous food  nor pollute our living environment…Anything under control is best…

At the same time I never intend to discourage your interest in organics my dear pal. Of course organic food produced without addition of outside artificial and synthetic input is best in life…

Good reply RAMU, I only wish BuddingFarmer backs up his views with these kind of theoritical data rather than some hearsay on the internet.

Thanks for clarifying for all of us.
Nikhil

Ramu, as long as the organisms (earthworms, dung beetle and bees) in your field are not dying you are walking the correct path. The existence of these on the farm naturally are the biggest pointers to a healthy agriculture land. They are the natures robots for nitrogen fixing, water harvesters and pollinators… they are free…  if these doesn’t exist and work for us then we have to pay labour to do their work…

If they are dying… it will definitely affect us… there is do doubt of that. Both economically and health wise… Absolutely no doubt about that.

All the required nourishment exist in cattle dung and urine… keeping the cattle on “to-be-cultivated-plots” by either a longer rope or inside fence for a few days would give sufficient minerals via fresh Dung & Urine and also keep the animals cleaner… the urine rich in its chemicals has to go directly into the farm ground without mixing with water which will dilute it…

It is exactly due to the death of underground organisms who burrow the earth and make it porous that rain water do not travel under ground. Per acre every monsoon Earthworms alone can take millions of ltrs of water underground… add another few millions ltrs by dung beetle and the farmer would have sufficient water to for his farm for the full year . If these organisms and micro-organisms  die by use of chemicals then these water flow over the ground… add hundreds of acres and we have a flood…

Also since this water did not go underground… once the monsoon is over… there is drought… its a dangerous cycle…

Dear Budding Farmer,

Your statement “All the required nourishment exist in cattle dung and urine.” is misleading. As Mr Ramu explained about “how much percentage of what” is needed for a proper discussion. As Lord Kelvin said “If you cannot express a concept in numbers, you dont know what you are talking about”.

Can you back up your claims with numbers, please?

Regards
Shan

Shan for dung and urine there is no limit… the more you can put in the better… thats why the dung and urine fall should be direct on the farm “ground”…

but for chemicals there are limits… thats why percentages are used…

Thanks a lot, Budding Farmer. I learnt a lot today. I am forever grateful to you to open my eyes.

I now know that cowdung and urine can have infinite goodness since they can be applied by infinite amounts. Infinite is the word.

With people like you working as  farmers, India will develop as an agricultural super power.

Thanks and Regards
Shan

Shan India WAS…IS and WILL BE… an agricultural super power because of its geography and climate… 

in spite of the East India Company trying to destroy agriculture for 100 yrs and the British Raj trying it for another 100 and our Government following their policies for another 69 yrs and continuing…

The way I see as a farmer:

Use of chemicals:
Is inevitable in today’s situation if NOT mandatory due to the equation that if certain amount of yield is expected then a particular amount of nutrients need to be fed to plants. Since it turns out to be highly expensive, laborious, scarcity of organic manures, farmers resort to chemical substitutes. And the reasons as to why has it become important to focus on such high yields per unit area are galore viz., to feed considerably large population, to earn more income per unit holding of land by farmer which is on average small against his total annual expenses; and I need not explain why does a farmer needs more income per small holding of land. Though I would like to mention one very important reason here, which is, farmer buys everything in retail and sells his produce in wholesale(not even legitimate wholesale).

Use of Organic fertilizers:

  • May not release required amount of nutrition at a particular point of time of plant growth required in precision farming to achieve high yields
  • Scarcity and expensive and laborious to apply.
  • Those farmers who have less holding of farm land may lead to just optimum yield which may occasionally/luckily just win him bread and butter but not jam/sauce. And I do not see any reason why a farmer should not deserve the “jam” when he is the reason for others in supply chain who are able to afford “expensive burgers” using farmers produce.

The way I see, Buddingfarmer was just trying to caution all of us who he feels are in a spree ending up in pumping too much of chemicals into the soil. And I agree to his point that in course of time, soil will loose its health and eventually its efficiency of producing good & healthy & safe-to-consume yields consistently and the sufferers are the next generation farmers. So I feel that views of Buddingfarmer do not deserve sarcasm rather needs deliberation towards inventing/discovering ways which can help in striking a balance between lifestyle & soil health in a collaborative approach.
Note: I somewhere read that too much use of organic fertilizers also is detrimental, just that we may have to dig a little deeper to understand the chemical reactions with excess use of organic fertilizers.

Personal experience:
“Existence” knows whats happening around and it knows how to balance :wink:
Less population of olden days aspired to achieve convenience which demanded more population. Surprisingly, more population resulted in creating excess convenience through automation and one day this automation will eventually demand less need of population and the cycle continues. Just that it may be a better idea to at least  preserve the ancient agricultural science of our ancestors.

Regards
Guru

RAMU after all the replies here, i completely missed out my basic question, whats your soil PH value?

The way you narrated i guess, ur soil might be more of alkaline family, so by applying it has got balanced, correct me if i am wrong, because in Hiriyur belt alkaline level is less compared to Thiruvallur,

Dear budding farmer
Thank you and I appreciate your interest in organic agriculture …
As I already told you this is leading you  npwhere …
I wish to explain that you can not put any quantity say more quantity of cowdung
When excess cowdung is applied the microbes in soil multiply fast and mineralization process increase and plants keep growing fast…
As microbes grow fast all the available oxygen in soil is depleted and microbial multiplication slows down and also demineralization starts …This will impact plants growth in negative way .Also due to anaerobic condition , the carbon in soil becomes converted into methane that damage roots that in turn affect plant growth …This you can check in your field…whatever I’m posting here is not theory .It is practical application …Since I am away from my residence for a week time , I could not write you with detailed explanation hpe this biological process sets in soil condition …Also I do not want to lead you into this subject as discussion …it takes about 2 -  3 hours to write the details that I don’t think necessary here…
Still I say I don’t want to discourage you …if you feel it is best what you are doing best npe, please continue …
All the best

Its always good to have dissent and discussion… let us not become intolerant… :wink:

although what Ramu said is logical… I have yet to see or hear about a farm that is suffering from overdose of organic fertilizer… but there are many farms suffering from overdose of chemicals…

Also people using chemical fertilizers on their farm use cow dung and urine…

People in organic farming do not use chemicals and can loose their organic certification if they are caught using or even in possession of such chemicals. (This is a fact and cannot be disputed).

We also have to change our habit of keeping our animals tied up in cowsheds and start keeping them at least in day time in to-be-cultivated plots in a planned manner. Keeping the cows in one place only without exercise will also make them unhealthy and also unhygienic and have dung covered on their hind legs. 

Farming without cattle will always be expensive…

Everyone of us are free to choose our course…

Great budding farmer …
I don’t have enough time for dissent and discussion …
So I would like your good self start organic cultivation using cow dung and cow urine alone and post all the development happening in your field in this forum with field pictures for the understanding of methods and results .
I will be  true follower of your methods…This will clear all the doubts in the minds of members concerned …

I would like to grow organic crops  in the field instead of growing it by mouth alone

Loosing organic certification is something different issue …but verifying whether all the produce sitting in the organic shop and confirming its original quality is the real issue
Hope your good self will post subsequent post with pictures to support your claim

There is no need for me to prove the worth of organic farmin and harm of chemical farming…

there are many successful models like ZBNF and organic mandya (organicmandya.com/) in Karnataka itself  to see and learn for those who are really interested even our Our PM Mr Narendra Modi himself has said so… about India’s biggest example Sikkim which is a completely organic state:

youtube.com/watch?v=RpeKSKIlKaY

And to say even for organic farming it is necessary to use chemical fertilizer is not correct. Actually a lot of farmers use both and then  say it is not profitable… how can it be possible if one has to pay from pocket for every thing?..

Even in the other topic where the person had listed his expenses I had pointed out that the person is spending way too much on seed, chemical fertilizer, pesticides etc. These are all available free in nature but we do not use it in a proper way.

Farming was supposed to be zero budget… but greed for more in less time is leading us to not only inferior soil quality but also inferior cattle and flood & drought conditions… and towards our doom.

India has been doing chemical agriculture from 50 yrs at least… if it was even remotely successful then there wouldn’t not have been a recent big  revival of organic fertilizers… there would have been a tractor for every farmer…  but this is not the case… Punjab the biggest state what practiced large scale monocrop chemical farming method has been reduced to a drug-addict state. Cotton farmers who practiced it in Maharashtra are committing sucide…

However you may continue… dont want to turn this into a organic vs chemical topic…

Budding farmer …when poke your nose into specific subject first please understand the subject of the thread …this thread tells about role of Ammonium sulphate in flower induction in moringa …
You came midway across  this discussion and infused the subject of organic and seems you are instigating …
Growing organic by mouth and citing Sikkim and mandya as example for organic cultivation does not serve any purpose

You better understand where the Sikkim state is located …at what latitude and altitude …what is the impact of geographical location on organic matter content and its availability in soil and where these two locations are placed on the map …what is the albedo and how it differs from place to place and altitude to altitude …

You just questioned me about organic in this thread …
If you come to argument with proper understanding I am ready to take up with you
If you simply instigate me with just cow dung and cowurine alone , I am not for it …better you open fresh thread where you can invite anybody and instigate the way you like …

Great reply Mr Ramu. I am really humbled by your scientific bent of mind and discussions around only science.

People who talk without numbers can better see a therapist. I am seeing so many self-made doctors, engineers, scientists, agriculturists etc, without proper understanding and thought process sullying the soceity.

Life is happening because of chemical reactions happening in biological systems. A plant is a chemical factory aligned in a physical system.

How many pepole know about Osmotic pressure, Turgor pressure etc, and how to measure them in plants, which are basic physics?

How important they are for a plant to suck “CHEMICALS” and grow? Have we come across these terms?

No Problem. Cow Dung and Urine will take care of everything :slight_smile:

Alas, when will people understand? I am not sure.

I would like to say however, that we should not waste much time in answering or replying to self made Gods.

Hence my earlier reply. The relevant people missed the sarcasm.

Regards
Shan

[quote][/quote]
Thank you sir…I earlier mentioned in this thread about organic cultivation that is really an holistic concept that can be followed by anybody in the interest of self and public .
Israel is poorly endowed with natural resources viz soil, water etc…
But it is the role model for the rest of the world …Is there anybody commiting suicide in Israel ?
India abounds in natural resources …India can produce and export surplus to other countries
Farm sector can provide employment to lot of educated youth …farm sector can earn foreign exchanges for india…farm sector can reduce hunger and poverty …farm sector can support many manufacturing industrie
Thomas A Edison and Newton never quoted somebody’s philosophies as reason or example to support their claims…
At least we have enough documents as invention and discoveries that can enlighten our knowledge and help us think a step forward for making improvements that might help our society …
When purposefully pushing people into primitive agriculture that happened in old paleolithic era 10000 years back is hurting people and Indian economy ,that seriously deserve censure …

Dear Forum Farmer Friends,

I want to bring the below mentioned statement , as some of our farmer friends are in a preoccupied  mind and saying that certain systems only are the answer for farming.

no one has brought/invented agriculture/horticulture to our earth, except mighty. Scientists, authorities, senior farmers etc are only trying to advise farmers, saying that the systems, stated by them are good. some are following, and some or not.

That does not mean that, certain system of farming only suitable for farming and other systems are wrong.

let us come to the present topic.

ZBNF is one among so many systems of farming in India. There are some advantages in that system of farming along with some disadvantages also. That system is good for certain crops, and farmers only and not suitable for some crops/farmers.

Upto my knowledge, one research scolars group of GKVK, did a test on ‘Jeevamrutha’ and submitted their papers, in which they stated that it is good with 3% more nitrozen than FYM and having some little more disease control micro organisms. Can any one tell us that till now any others scohalars/groups of any universties or institutions, did any research on ZBNF and their results.

Dear sirs, From past 4 years ,i am using Jeevamrutha for my crops.  Results are normal and good, but not extraordinary.

I advise our friends like this. We can follow any system as we like and/or advise any good system to needy farmers, but let us never say that all other systems are waste. Pl remember, there is Agri/Horti/Oleri/Flori cultures before ZBNf and after also.

You may be very rich, not bother for high yields, own lands, no much liabilities on your land and projects in it. But all are not like you sir, and we have purchased our lands with little more money [no parental properties ], took huge amounts of loans from banks and purchased new varieties of high yielding hybrid plants and we have to earn more money.

Telling ‘this system is good’ is good , but saying that greedy farmers may not be a good dialogue. We are not greedy and pl call us needy. We should try to move a head, but should not go back to olden days.

Hope you all such, know the fact and expect will rectify your selves. Pl enquire about ZBNF, how many have started and how many are existing, what type of plantations/farmers are suitable for ZBNf and what  are not suitable. firstly ,go and inspect physically and come to a conclusion, before giving a statement.

For example, hundreds of Pomegranate farmers started ZBNF  system and most of them have shifted to Organic/Inorganic or other systems, by leaving ZBNF, as it was not much suitable to them, and now very few are following zbnf system still. For this, you can verify the list of ZBNF farmers circulated earlier and physically verify how many are continuing. Let us be practical. i have full regards on the invetor of ZBNF and I am using Jeevamrutha.

I want to state that most of our farmers are needy [not greedy] and need good yield and good production for our/their daily neeeds, which should be faced with farm incomes only.

with good wishes,    g.p.rao,  farmer

Well said G.P.Rao sir…We keep telling organic farming is a good concept and it is really yood for health and soil …

ZBNF , is a beautiful concept that best fit in specific situation where no other system can do wonder …
We are are never against any system that help particular farmers in their location specific situation …
But the way your good self pointed the farmers are needy but not greedy …If a poor farmer goes greedy thatvis never looked down …because he is putting his resources and energy to multiply his investment when indirectly and directly feeding the exploding population that is expected to reach 9 billion soon

Dear Forum Farmer Friends,

Organic Farming is universally accepted. All most all the world wide Universities, Institutes, people of all parts of the world , have accepted for organic Fruits, vegetables, cereals and grains. It is an iInternational Farming system. It is more costlier than Even Inorganic farming also.

ZBNf is not organic farming and it is not accepted universally. Both are different. no comparison at all. ZBNF is followed by very few farmers that too for certain crops only. It is not an Internationally accepted farming system.

Here we have to remember the Newton’s third law, which is universally accepted. " for every action, there is equal and opposite reaction". If ,We give sufficient fertilisers ( either organic or Inorganic ) to the plants, well known is, they will produce required quantity of fruits/vegetables/flowers/cereals/grains.

In my agri experiance of so many years, I have visited so many hundreds of Pomegranate farms, in Karnataka,Maharashtra, AP and telangana, but I found only one ZBNF farm of pomegranate in Hirayur area, name of farmer is Umesh sir, an advocate . He is following ZBNF and getting good quality fruits but size of the fruits and quantity per plant are not comparable to other systems followed for Inorganic/Organic etc.

except the above, if any other farmers are following ZBNF system in pomegranate, pl let us know, so that we can have a visit and learn more knowledge.

with best wishes,    g.p.rao,    farmer