Is Organic Farming / Natural Farming practical?

Dear all namaste,

There is very informative and nice discussion going on here and thaks to Chandra to manage this whole forum so eficiently…

Iam new in feild of farming and definatly dam sure of effective ness of natural farming agianst camical or “organic” farming…
Iam following Fukuoka and Palekar ji…

to make understand people on natural farming is some what like making them understand sprituality …people keep running whole life for materials and acumulating material much much more then need, but the reality is that it will be of no use at last…

I talked with many sucessful natural farmers and people who are not confident on natural farming.

thanks to Boovarahan s , ramsai , cowherd and many more for inspiring and valuable informations…

I hope to become one more example of natural farmer…

Regards
Ashok Pokhriyal
ashok.pokhriyal@gmail.com

Namaste,

I need help and advice on jeevamrita.
In my land I don’t have any resource of irrigation and it depends on rain only.(rain is good in Uttrakhand).
now I want to use jeewamrita, can i use “ghan jeewamrita” instead of liquid jeevamrita with same effect?

Regards
Ashok.Pokhriyal@gmail.com

Yes. But Gana Jivamrutha needs much more volume of cow dung and gomuthra.
You can add a handful of soil from banyan shade along with a handful of farm soil.

Found this article on natural farming in today’s businessline: thehindubusinessline.com/tod … 819936.ece
Is it the same Ashok Sanghavi you were referring to, varaahan?

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Yes !

You would gone through Ashok Sanghvi’s book.
The life and works or Sri Bhaskar Save is astounding. He himself was a chemical farmer and feriliser dealer earning good profit but eventually converted his farm into natural farming on seeing the futility of chemical farming. In the latest issue of “Pasumai Vikatan” , a Tamil fortnightly on agriculture , there is an article of a farmer who was farming with chemicals and went allergic to pesticides and as per his doctor’s advice , he had to forgo the usage of chemicals and turned into natural farming. And this made him a much more profitable farmer.

Instances are numerous of farmers having turned to natural farming and natural farming is found to be more profitable than chemical farming.

I have read the book too and went to Umbergaon to meet Shri Save and had the good fortune to learn from him.It was illuminating and inspiring. In fact that was what gave me the confidence to make my decision to get into natural farming.
Regards,
Yaj.

That’s nice to have an “in person” experience from Sri Saveji.

Why don’t you let us know of your interaction with him ?

Well it was almost 2 years back, i had read Mr Sanghvi’s book and contacted Shri Save’s son for a farm visit. Since me and my brother in law are both doctors we requested to be allowed to visit on a Sunday. Though they were reluctant they were kind enough to give us permission for a Sunday visit. We reached in the afternoon and we came to know that another group had already visited and left. Saveji is a slim tall,sprightly gentleman who was if i am not mistaken 82 years young at the time.He seemed very fit for his age except for the fact that he was a bit hard of hearing.Mr Save was tired but he was kind enough to explain his systems to us .
Once he got started he spoke to us at length for about 2 and a half hours.He showed us his principles in practice around his farm and indeed it was very reassuring for someone like me who intended to get into the field.He grows coconuts,and chikoo as main crop, Nawabi kolum as main rice crop and numerous other trees and plants as intercrop. His systems of natural farming are similar to fukuoka’s, with raised terrace beds and croton plants as moisture indicator being additional embellishments.He has his own system of irrigation ,a network of buried pipes leading to the ditches in his trench and terrace system.
Being on his farm it was easy to feel how the micro climate of his farm differed from the surrounding areas.
He even offered me free consultancy (he told me that though his sons charge for the same he himself did not)once I had purchased my land, the only condition being that I pick him up and drop him back to his place since he found it difficult to travel at his age.
I intend to go back once my land procurement is completed to seek his blessings ,advice and buy his coconut saplings,and chikoo saplings and whatever other native varieties he may have on offer.
Regards,
Yaj.

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You are a lucky guy to have interacted with such a “Pithamagan” of natural farming in India.
Often I find people advising to grow trees. While this is good for an orchard, what can be done for a farmland where rice and other grains are the only plants grown ? And what happens for a small farm like mine which is about 29 cents in area ?
Suppose I try to grow some trees , immediately I’d be objected to by the adjacent farmers who would complain of the shade because they want maximum unobstructed sunlight. My farm is about 100 ft by 130 ft. (if my memory serves me right !) and during the north east monsoon period of November / December gets flooded by rain water which takes a long time to recede as the water from nearby villages has to pass through our area. And I fear the roots of tree sapling would be damaged by these stagnating water. And apart from the Dakshinayana period , there is no restriction on cattle grazing in my area and I am afraid of the cattle eating all the saplings as my farm is without any fencing.
I would like to get the comments of our esteemed members so that I could change the scenario slowly.

Trees are important especially on the borders of your field since they act as a windbreak.Try explaining that to your neighbours and encourage them to do the same and protect their topsoil.You can plant trees which do not have too much of a canopy,teak or melia dubia maybe suitable.
Have you thought of a swale and berm perpendicular to the direction of flow of rainwater on your farm periphery? It will recharge your water table at the same time prevent the water from washing away your topsoil or water logging.You can plant Caesalpinia bonduc (fever nut/sagargota)on the berm which will act as a live fence which should be impenetrable in 2 years time.
Regards,
Yaj.

I visited Umargaon in Dec 2005 and had the good fortune of seeing both Sanghi Farm as well as Kalpavruksha. Sanghi Farm in Vrundavan area of Umargaon was developed by Shri.Bhaskar Saveji on 20 odd acres of land which hardly had 6 inch of top soil on a bed of sheet rock. Agriculture University Experts gave a budget estimate of Rs.60,00,000/- for developing this land without any assurance of any returns on this Investment. However, with only Rs.60,000/, Shri.Saveji turned this very same land in to a PARADISE in a short time where Coconuts,Chickoos,Mangoes, Lichees and many other fruits grew in abundance.I had planned a visit in January 2010 and spoke to Shri Ashok Saghvi and learnt that he has sold the farm & would not say anything about it being available for visitors.It is indeed very sad that the PARADISE has fallen to Urbanisation.
Masanubo Fukuoka, world acclaimed NATURAL FARMER wrote in the visitors book “Shri.Bhaskar Saveji is India’s second Gandhiji”. The natural methods of Shri Saveji & ZERO BUDGET NATURAL FARMING as taught by Guruji Shri.Subhash Palekar will alone help & save Indian farmers from committing suicide & help us all to get TOXIC FREE FOOD.
By K.S Raj

Good idea !

Already I’ve bought the sagargotta seeds to plant after the rains are over. As these are to be planted after the rains , I am waiting for December.
As you have rightly said I may go in for teak or kumizh tree plantation along the borders of my farm.
Thanks for your nice suggestion.

Dear All,

I have picked up 6 Acres of land. Though all the surrounding lands have red soil, mine is of some what brownish to black. Looks like it has more of clay content. I was told by all the traditional farmers surrounding me that Black Soil is not good for any thing. They have simply declared that “Nothing can be grown in Black clay soil”

Now, having struggled for many years in search of land, I landed up with this. Can all the organic gurus guide me as to how I can turn this clay soil (Black Soil) to be productive under organic way. I did my little homework on the net, Since the clay particulars cling on to themselves, they hold more moisture and gets compacted this not allowing air circulation for the roots. The common advise to deal with clay soil is to add gypsum to it. But I am sure there must be some other way ie Organic way to deal with clay soil.

Can any guru who has dealt with similar problem guide me.

Well here is the pic of the soil.

Regards

Murali

Hi Murali,

I am no guru, but here are my thoughts.

I think ‘black soil is useless’ is far from truth. Far from it, I believe black soil is generally a better source of nutrients and hence more fertile.

Clay content in the soil is another matter; black soil does not necessarily mean clay. As you indicated, too much clay proportion leads to shrinkage and cracking when dry and expansion and water logging when wet. Obviously crop roots won’t like either condition. In really heavy clays, the common crops hence tend to be rice and sugarcane which are seasonal/annual crops and don’t mind water logging. The other issues might be very poor soil depth that doesn’t allow root growth and salinity/alkalinity that often is an off shoot of water logging.

Looking at your pic, I don’t get a feel it is clay, since clay would be too hard and won’t break open the way it has in the pic - but it could just be the pic. I see you don’t have the depth issue either. I doubt you would have the salinity/alkalinity issue either.

In what I can recollect, gypsum is recommended to reduce alkalinity by replacing the sodium with calcium and lowering soil PH. I think the best approach if your soil is indeed clay (or even otherwise) is to add all lots of organic matter / manure on an ongoing basis. Addition of tank silt is also a recommended solution to make the soil less heavy, but I am not sure how easy it is to procure it. In any case, I don’t think your soil is so heavy to be too worried about.

Now for the real gurus! :wink:

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Hi Chandra and others,

I appreciate your thoughts. This give me some steam to bull doze my way. I am a type of a character that doesnt give up. So adds your thoughts to my strength. The struggle I underwent in procuring the land is far more significant than what I have on my hand now.

Yes on the top of it it looks like it is not with much of clay, but at a depth of 3 to 4 feet I could observe the JCB had to fight it out. More over as mentioned by you some parts are water logged and that is definitely clayish. One advise by all is to add a top layer of red soil and mix it with the existing ones. Well on the cost factor that seems enormous for 6 Acres. More over who will give that much of red top soil. Tank silt is another source of hard clay & silt, but you have to have your way through locals and panchayats !!. As regards to the soil being acidic or alkaline, I am keeping my fingers crossed as I have deposited a pack of soil sample for analysis. I hope that would be easy to deal with as you only need to add lime or sulphur to match the neutral pH. But for the whole place it would be another nightmare added to clay control.

But I would like to proceed in an organic way. Well here are my thoughts.

  1. Plough the land with Disc plough and then with "5 chisel plough (Locals call this as “Balarama”) , perpendicular fashion.

  2. Cast Daiancha, Glyredesia and cow pea and other fast growing grass seeds etc and wait for 30 to 40 days.

  3. Use a rotovater and put the grown plants with their stalk back to ground.

  4. Load enormous amounts of cattle manure to the entire land to increase the organic matter. (costly process, each tractor load cost Rs 2000 + loading + transportation :'( ).

Kindly share your thoughts before I burn more of my savings.

Regards

Murali

Hi !

The type of soil varies even within a couple of feet.
For example , I engaged labour to dig a trench of i foot width for 200 feet long . Though we expected to finish the work within a day , it took three days to complete. The soil was sandy for a couple of feet and hard clay thereafter . Further it was mixed with calcium ( called sukkaan locally ) making the digging a herculean task. The tools were returned back during digging as if they went against hard granite rock . It is in this land paddy is grown (though by chemical farming) .
Now I am planning to cultivate sugarcane in this field with Subash Palekar’s Zero Budget natural farming technique.
This involves lot of live mulching . Fortunately local farmers cut down the dried leaves of sugarcane crops and I am planning to spread them as cover mulch in my land.
Don’t worry about the clay content and pH value. Make the farm suitable for earthworms to thrive in. They will take care of the ploughing business.

Another nice link is here : greenlocal.org/SoilTransformation

This may be helpful to you in lightening the hardness of the sub soil .

Good luck.

Hi

The locals here use this type of soil for paddy & sugarcane crops. Though they add a few inches of other soil trenched out, they say the yield is very less. Well as you said I figure it out that adding a large amount of organic matter must take care. But my intentions are to have an integrated horticulture in this land and these trees need to send their roots deep inside, fighting its way thru clay !!

I have another problem at hand. In this area the “Jalli Tree” or Acacia Nelotica grows very well and in abundance. Can this be used for vermicomost ?? Almost every one whom I approached had said that this shrub/tree which has deadly thorns takes a lot to time to rot and earth worms may not work on it… May be I will try it out and see it for myself in an expt trench.

Looking at the vigor this Jalli shrub grows gives me some confidence. I presume all plants need NPK for their growth and this Jalli must be sourcing it from the black clay soil itself.

Now as regards to mulching, the idea is to conserve moisture. But by inherent nature of black clay soil, moisture is in abundance, will mulching make matter worse ??

Yes I have decided to go in Zero budget NF , palekars way and see the change for myself. I will keep you updated on the transformations.

Before that I will add some jeevanmrutha and grow some green manure crop and shove it back to soil. Atleast this will be my sample crop and seeing the growth vigour, I can decide on what next to do. My intentions are to grow G9 Tissue culture banana.

Regards

Murali

Don’t worry about scientific data and soil health.
Just provide as much green / brown mulch as possible and apply Jeevamrutha once in fifteen days .
Keep the soil moist but not wet and let the earthworms do the rest of work.
If you have much cow dung , apply frequently Gana Jeevamrutha.
Don’t bother about how the roots of tender plants will go through. Nature will provide the way. Our manual intervention should be up to the level of providing a conducive atmosphere for the earthworms and micro organisms to thrive in which involves providing mulch cover ad applying Jeevamrutha.

Hi,

I had another shock to day. Worried about the soil, I did visit GKVK (Agri University hear Hebbal , Bangalore) and met their soil HOD. Nice chap, but totally white collared ???. Advised me to dig trenches to get the water out of clay soil . Another shock was he told that Bellary Jalli tree grows in abundance where soil is salty. Sodiac // Alkaline :'(

Now I think adding mulch, organic matter to the soil and allowing nature to work it out for me is the only thing for me. But this is not Zero Budget. The soil analysis report is still a week away.

On my way back visited National Seeds Corp for some green manure seeds and tall grass seeds. They have only sunhemp The sunhemp for green manure costs Rs 40/kg and the bag is of 40 KG :'( . So had to settle with cowpea of 5KG bag @ Rs 250 per bag ;D.

To start off I will be broadcasting these seeds into an hectare that is going under Balarama (5 chisel plough) shortly. Well this cowpea growth will give me an indicator as to how things progress. May be sunhemp next time as carrying 40KG bag was out of my reach :stuck_out_tongue:. As you said rightly I will also mix thur dal this costs @ 70/KG again 5KG bag.

Regards

Murali

First get rid of scientific bent of mind. Don’t bother about pH value , alkalinity etc.
Just plough the field and let it dry making thew soil loose.
For seed planting I’d suggest you the following.

Take a PVC pipe of about 1.5 inches dia. Cut at an angle os , say 45 to 60 degrees at one end like a pipe jumper. Let the length of the PVC pipe be few inches above your waist level. Take the seeds in an open box and tie it around your waist. Now poke the cross end of the PVC pipe on the loose soil (midway on the ridge) , drop a seed or two from the top pf the pipe and turn the pipe just a half circle. You will notice the seed buried into the soil and covered . This is one of the easiest ways to plant seeds at a good speed. With practice , you can plant seeds fast. This method will not work when the field is wet or too dry . When wet , the soil will stick to the tube blocking the seed and when too dry , you won’t be able to poke a hole.
Just give it a try as this method is not too expensive.