Is Organic Farming / Natural Farming practical?

Dear All:

I am a recent entrant to this field and this forum, but am amazed at the wealth of info that is being exchanged! Special thanks to Cowherd, Chandra & nandanan. I will be eagerly looking for further posts - particularly on the control of pests/insects.

I have recently retired from business/corporate life (age 65), have no prior knowledge of farming or agriculture, but am interested in making a success of organic (now natural, as clarified by cowherd!) farming. I have 2 small plots of land outside Hyderabad (3 acres & 2 acres) and I have started fruit and vegetable farming. I am doing it as a hobby and I can sustain the continuous cash outflow during the learning period, but want to:
a) learn enough to make it a viable operation.
b) the basic objective is to be able to demonstrate to other local villagers nearby that this kind of farming/agriculture is a more profitable proposition in the meduim to long term.
c) strongly believe that “natural” is the way to go. If I cannot make my venture financially viable, then how do I convince other less “formally” educated neighbours? (I am a Mech Engg from IIT with a PhD in Mathematical Economics/Finance and have a reasonably successful business and career record!).

Being active for the past 6 months in this activity, I have started a vermicompost setup in my farm, and presently use only neem extracts for pest control. My first total failure with this was when I had planted Tur dal on a small plot of about 1000 sq yds. (there are various other vegetables on the rest of the plot). The plants grew very well and flowering was excellent and pod formation seemed visibly OK. But insects attacked which did not respond to the usual concentration of the neem spray. The total experiment was a failure - no output!

I would need constant hand holding to take me forward and I hope I can get it. Let me assure all that I do not intend to give up even if I face failure several times!

Following this thread with great interest.

Ananth1946

Dear ananth1946,

Welcome to the forum and glad to see your interest sir. To my mind as well, pest control seems to be the most critical aspect of organic/natural farming - I am also eager to hear the experiences of our natural farmers (experts) here on that area.

Nice to see you venturing into the field, this somewhat matches what I am ‘planning’ to do too - farmnest.com/content/project-new-farm

I hope we can all share and collaborate.

Thanks,
Chandra

Chandra,glad that you have taken a step further and want to grow natural food.Fantastic! Do keep us posted on what you grow and how it does. If everyone thinks this way, food security won’t be an issue. It takes only 5 cents of greens to feed a family of 5 they say.

ananth1946,Namasthe, and welcome to the forum, sir.

Congratulations!You have exhibited the qualities that a natural farmer needs the most, that is perseverance, resilience, and never– say-die spirit.Natural farming can be really severe on new-practitioners. Most of them quit at the initial stages ,very few carry on. Believe me, no single natural farmer I know has got everything right straightaway and had they quit at the first few failures, none of them would have gone on to become natural farmers!

Will put down my thoughts on pests soon

Regards,
Cowherd

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Before getting into pest and disease management, it pays to know the pests and diseases better; to see what their roles in nature are. Hence, let me answer this question in two posts. First a perspective on pests, and later their management .

Pests and diseases – These are words that a farmer dreads the most. To him/her they are synonymous with destruction and loss. From the agri-business point of view, they eat into his profitability, each fruit or unit of crop that is lost due to them reduces his returns; hence it’s essential to launch an all out offensive on them;by eliminating every single one of them you eliminate every single chance of loss.So thinks modern farming.

Prior to dealing with pests, it would be wise for the farmer to examine nature’s agenda on them, understand its logic and comes to terms with it;all this for his own sake. This will help him determine what levels of pest control are realistic and desirable.

First of all the myth that ‘the farmer gets to harvest his entire crop’ has to be broken. No farmer has ever managed to harvest 100% of his crop. Never ever, not even in green houses or under controlled conditions. This is against the rule of nature and is impossible to achieve. Agreed, we can claim ownership to the land, produce tax-paid receipts, possession certificates and can even obtain court orders to this effect, barring others from the land; this is as per law of the land. We believe we are entitled to everything in our land, but Mother Nature has different ideas. Her ideas are based on the concept of co-existence and sharing. She has clearly decides that all the produce is not for human beings alone, it has to shared with all other forms of life in the land. Laws of the land are applicable only to us, who framed it, it does not apply beyond. Laws of nature reign supreme and prevail over laws of land.

Nature reserves a small portion of any crop for herself, or more precisely for her system/cycle, the different members of the cycle. Ultimately, there is no loss anywhere; everything goes back into the system. In nature’s reservation system there is a priority list, according which all allotments happen. Human beings come last in this list. Here even if the farmer may get the maximum quantity of crop, he is placed towards the bottom of the delivery list.

If you are still wondering what I am saying, let me explain. Observe any plant from the initial to the final stage of crop. Take a count of the initial flowering, fruit setting and final mature fruit; you’ll see what I am saying. In the flowering stage a certain percentage of flowers are lost due to microbial action, then a certain percentage of the fruits set is lost again due to microbial action. Similarly in the fruit maturity stage this happens. Fungi, virus, bacteria etc infest the fruit. Think of the discoloured, disfigured and decaying fruits that you avoid. These are consumed by the microbes and put back to the soil. Then there are the pests – borers, bees, wasps, birds, and bigger animals etc that take portion of the crop and put the remains back to the soil. Another interesting point here is that microbes destroy several times more than pests do, but since their actions are not noticeable pests are still held as the biggest culprits!

Nature’s management of vegetation is characterized by two events, growth and decomposition. Both are dependent on each other and one cannot survive without the other. Growth and decomposition form a cycle, with soil being the intermediary. Plants produce energy and grow with the help of sunlight, water and nutrients with the support of soil. After completing growth the ageing plants are deposited on soil and decompose, contributing to humus. Here the microbes that consume a portion of the crop/leaves are acting towards humus building. So too the pests. A bird consuming a small portion of the crop will cast its droppings near the plant and also leave he remains on the floor. So this is nature’s in –built system of maintaining soil fertility. In this cycle there’s no growth without decomposition and no decomposition without growth. Here when the decomposition part of the cycle is broken, growth gets affected as the breakage results in depleting soil fertility. Assume one were to apply chemicals or spray pesticide, in the plant parts,leaves or soil they are applied the bacteria cannot break down and decompose . Here the decomposition in the cycle gets stalled and starts affecting the growth. Following this, plants will start showing weakness, for which they will be recommended chemicals!

Microbes and pests are contributors towards maintain the fertility. Remember the normal good crop that one gets is after all the pests and microbes take their quota. Only when the pests and diseases eat up crops at a much higher percentage/ abnormal rate should one and worry, (I shall get into the causes and remedies of this later, in the next post dealing with pest management)) So in reality the regular crop loss that you normally don’t notice is fine they are only taking whatever is due to them rightfully. They are colleagues of yours that contribute. Any business management expert would tell you that contributors in the organization have to be rewarded. Will any company that keeps clinging on to it’s profits without sharing it with employees, retain good employees? This day and age when stock options are offered to employees, why hesitate to share a small portion of the crop? From a modern farming point of view, don’t you sell crop to buy fertilizer? The same way barter a small part of the crop for lots of fertility.

I can quote several cases where this idea has worked successfully . Know a litchi farmer who happily lets birds/pests and microbes have 10% of his fruit. Not only does he get a good crop every year but also maintains fertility. I follow the same example with my crops, as well as the mangoes, jack fruits, papaya etc in the garden. I have never experienced a reduction in crop. All the plants fruit well without extra care.

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Sounds like at one level, this would all merge into spirituality!
Ok, back to the topic - keep it coming. Thanks! :stuck_out_tongue:

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Contrary to popular belief, it is much easier to control pets and diseases in Natural farming than in chemical farming. People wonder how natural farming can cope with the deadly range of pests and diseases seen in chemical farming, but the fact is that one never comes across these kinds of pests and diseases in natural farming. It is the system in natural farming that counters pests and diseases. There are no one shot wonders against pests or diseases. The sum total of all the practices and the balance they bring into the system is what deters pests and diseases.

What could be the biggest contributor to causing pests and diseases in cultivated plants? Undoubtedly, the urea and the chemical fertilizers. Having experimented with several crops like coffee, pepper, arecanut, cardamom, cocoa, coconut, banana, ginger etc, I have found that when the chemical diet to plants is cut-off, the incidence of pests and diseases come down tremendously, it is reduced by at least 80%.

If you feel I am pointing fingers without reason or evidence, here follows the reason, with evidence.

Chemical fertilizers induce a strange kind of growth in plants, an unnatural, unhealthy growth. The plants shoot up initially; they have an elongated growth, at least 20 % longer than their natural counterparts but less sturdy.This 20% advantage is only immediate, after a while the natural counter part catches up

Chemical fed plants develop soft tissues. The fibre content of their trunk/stem decreases and the water content increases. It is virtually an open invitation and cakewalk for insects.And how does modern farming respond to this? By applying strong doses of pesticides! Instead of diagnosing the problem pesticides are applied. A classic case of failing to address the exact problem and trying to fix the symptom instead! And what does this pesticide do? Apart from slow poisoning you, it also happens to kills the pests, poisons the plant, weakening it, and also makes it dormant for a while.

Now for the evidence part, try splitting the trunk of a naturally farmed banana and an NPK banana, and the difference can be seen straightaway. Have observed something similar in coffee. There’s an operation in coffee known as de-suckering where unwanted shoots/suckers are pulled out. In my neighbour’s chemical farm the suckers can be pulled out as easily as one pulls out of a cellophane tape, in mine you really have to rip it off.Similarly, with slash weeding, the sickles and knives of my workers get blunted and worn out faster! The few bananas that I have never suffered stem breakages due to wind, whereas the NPK fed ones in my locality do, they need to be supported and tied up with wire.

One of my friends who natural-farms rubber, experienced something similar. The first 2 years, the NPK rubber plants in his neighbourhood out shot his plants recording a 20% higher and faster growth. By the 3 rd year the natural rubber caught up. By the 6th year, the naturally grown trees showed better canopy development, and had bigger girth than rest. They are also immune to trunk/stem breakages and casualties that are common in the area. His plants started yielding an year earlier. This year even under adverse climatic conditions my Friend’s rubber has shown a higher yield than the others in the area. Also his DRC (Dry Rubber content is 15% higher than the rest)

Coming to diseases, dis-ease it is literally, the plant is not at ease with the soil and surroundings. There’s no secret or magic to produce healthy disease free crops. Healthy soils produce healthy plants and healthy plants in turn produce healthy crops and thereby healthy people. As early as in the 1930s itself scientists had discovered a direct link between humus- soil health, plant health, animal health and human health. The results of tests without doubt established that soils rich in humus produced healthy plants that were not affected by pests or diseases and soils poor in humus produced the the exact opposite.

Tests on animals revealed more. Animals fed the greens from humus rich soils required lesser quantities of fodder and were healthy whereas animals fed chemical fed greens were disease prone. In these conducted tests, even the foot and mouth disease seen in cattle that is believed to be contagious, showed surprising results.Animals fed with natural greens were not affected so the scientists went a step further, brought these animals into contact with diseased animals, still the natural fed animals remained were not infected.

The tests on humans went on reinforce this further. Children from different boarding schools were chosen.Boarders from one school were given only naturally grown food and the other chemically fed food. The latter were found to be disease prone whereas the former were unaffected. Need I say more?!
So, natural farming controls diseases and pests and leads to healthy produce not by any major intervention or operation. It is the steps and procedure followed from the seed to soil, at every level and stage that ensures pests and diseases are controlled. Natural framing advocates repelling pests not terminating them. The point here is that pests and diseases, once they sense that the conditions in the area are not conducive, quickly seek fresh pastures. The moment, there appears a chink in the armour, they reappear quick enough.

Chandra,should I rightaway get on to ‘how to put this theory to practice in the farm – the methods’ or do you want me to answer this as part of your final question

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cowherd,

I should admit this sounds too good & fantastic. Very exciting to hear that it is real and ‘practical’. But I would like you to clarify this a little more - in kitchen gardens which are purely naturally grown - we often can not save the plants from devastation. For example, powdery mildew completely destroys gourds at one instance, sucking pests devastate ornamentals and viruses deform plants no end. ananth1946 had the same experience in his field. What practical methods can one apply in such circumstances?

My last question was on how less water was sufficient for natural cropping, but feel free to choose how you want to put it - it is all very interesting! The methods will be most helpful to assist others to pick them and put into practice. Thanks.

In between our discussions, the news of a farmer friend’s success has reached me. I had known about his farming, but his actual figures of production, expenses etc were calculated and results arrived at only recently. Only then did I realise his is nothing short of an outstanding effort.Makes me really happy and excited, so much that I am taking a slight detour from the discussion to share his success story.

Shri. Jayaram Gopal’s achievements makes us natural farmers proud. His naturally farmed farm has surpassed the yields of chemical farms; both in terms of highest yield recorded and the average yield over the years.No mean feat, it took him some sustained effort to get there.

Shri. Gopal has a 7 acre farm in Sarpamale, Perla, Kasargod. His main crop is arecanut, with coconut, cocoa and pepper as intercrop. This farmer was into inorganic farming earlier and had notched yields up to 1200Kg per acre. 1200 kg was the highest crop registered and the average crop over 3-4 years used to be 800Kgs/acre. Gradually his production levels started dropping, expenses went up and plants started getting disease prone forcing him to go natural. In 2007 he started following the ‘Zero Budget Natural Farming’ methods of Subhash Palekar. Today Shri. Gopal is glad to have gone that way. In 2009-10 his crop hit 1300Kg / acre, and the average crop over 3-4 years stands at 900Kgs/Acre. This is only with arecanut. The diseased coconut, cocoa and pepper plants have been rejuvenated, and the farm still has more to offer as it is yet to reach full potential. These inter crops will also improve and yield better.

Now, for the cost part of the framing. Earlier, under chemical farming, Shri.Gopal used to incur an expenditure of Rs14,000/- per acre for which he used to get an average yield of 800Kgs per acre. Now, under natural farming methods, he incurs only Rs5,500/- per acre for which he gets a yield of 900Kgs per acre. Goes without saying that the crop under natural farming is much superior and fetches a higher price than market rates.

This farmer applies 9-10 rounds of “Jeevamrutha” preparation every year. He is also into little bit of composting and makes sure there is always sufficient mulch in the soil.

Unlike in the old saying, it is not just one woman, but there are
three Women behind the success of Shri.Jayaram Gopal! Smt . Gopal (Mrs.Gopal) is actively involved in running the farm as is their Daughter. But the Superwoman that the family attributes all their success to is Seethamma, their Indigenous Kasargod Breed Dwarf Cow. Seethamma provides for all the inputs to farm the 7 acres and is simply adored by the family.

This farming family needs to be appreciated for two things, first to have dared go natural, when no one gave them a chance. Then, to have worked tirelessly, without giving up, and to have bettered the yields quantities of Chemical farming.

Let’s give them a big hand …








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today’s organic farming/farmers/experts are like deserts/islands. organic farming is like five blind people describing an elephant. the need is do we have the inputs in volumes needed to convert the entire country into organic farming. do we have technology for this like chemical farming. many farmers have stuck to cheniical farming just because they have no alternative for their living.
there are more talkers. seminar/conference farmers. now internet/blog farmers/experts. the so called agri universities are trying to do research on org farming with no result. their research will never end. if their research ends then they will become jobless.
this is the state of organic farming all over the world.

the need is the organic farming produce is to be sold at cheaper rates than chemical. then only organic farming can be said to be practical or successful otherwise it is a failure.

Good points, but most often innovation starts from a farmer in that little farm and is shared from farm to farm. Developing scalable technology for implementation is one thing, but the basic question is whether it works at all. Pricing again is a subject of input costs and volumes.

The experience of ‘real’ farmers with soiled hands on this topic suggests it works, so far at least. Everyone can make one’s own conclusions of the experiences, but we need to have the farmers wash their hands and key in their experiences for us! :smiley:

the best method to develop organic farming on a large scale is to take one village as a unit make it organic within one season. then others will follow the same.
it has been already done by us. but, no one wants to appreciate because of their ego. this is the fate of india.
if any village comes forward to convert into an organic village in just one year, we can do it for them. no ego, no disputes, no cross examinations, only honesty, sincerity and dedication to the work is the need.
are there any takers?

Nice nice! I think you should press ahead with the good work regardless of what others think and say.
Would you mind telling us more about your work and may be show it on another topic here so people can be charged up? Your introduction in the The forum introductions topic would be helpful too.

Dear All:

I was out of circulation for a few days and saw the last few posts today only. Just before I opened this forum today, I went to Sri Subhash Palekar’s website on Zero Based Natural Farming, and now I see that what Cowherd is recommending is the same. After seeing Sri Keshavapuri’s comments, I have to following observations:

  1. There is no need to be in a hurry to convert everyone to the idea of natural farming. If one farmer can demonstrate that his natural farm output is as good or better than that of his neighbours’ in the village, the good word will spread. We need to have belief and patience. It is like spirituality as advocated by the vedas/upanishads - though many agree that spirituality works, hedonism is more appealing in the short run!
  2. For the process (of natural farming) to take root, we need more atomistic individuals to be ready to walk that extra mile (with belief & patience) to establish small oases at distributed locations. For this, these individuals need as much inputs as possible from those who have achieved success. While reading success stories on the forum help, personal contacts by phone and visits are most welcome for me.
  3. A little more discussion & clarification on the effects of “organic farming” based on vermicompost would be most welcome. From a reading of the little that is posted on Sri Subhash Palekar’s site on Zero Based Natural Farming, the idea I get is that vermicomposting is total disaster. Intuitively, I get the feeling that organic farming based on vermicompost is somewhere between natural and chemical farming - the former being the most desireable and the latter the least! From what I have been able to understand, the major negative that Sri Palekar says about vermicompost is that the earthworms accumulate heavy metals and transmit them through the food grown to humans. I would like more references to the research literature from both sides on this matter.
  4. I have called for copies of his 3 books in English and shall be most happy to share whatever I gain from there with others, to spare them the time it takes to read - being a retired person, I have all the time in the world!

In the meantime, I would appreciate it if Cowherd or some one else could give inputs on the pest control sprays that Sri Palekar has suggested, if they have tried them.

Good wishes to all,

Ananth

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Some more afterthoughts.

  1. In natural farming, one of the main sources of replenishing the lost elements in the top soil is the earthworm which brings up the required minerals from the subsoil. These worms also create the channels for draining the rain water into the subsoil and also aerate the top soil. I presume that these worms will not appear by themselves. Also, in general, the more the better. How doen one enhance its population? where do you get them for seeding purposes into the farm soil?

  2. I recently tried growing capsicum (in Hyderabad). I set up a control lot in pots at home and in the open field in the farm. The farm lot did not do well - there was a lot of leaf curl. The plants at home in the pots did better. I frequently sprayed the plants with neem oil extracts. The size of the fruit was not comparable with those available in the market. Probably they were chemically grown? The quality of the seeds were the best I could get in the market. What could be the reasons?

  3. I recall that under natural farming there are some types of plants that could be grown on the boundaries of the farm to “attract” insects away from the crop plants. What are these?

Look forward to inputs.

Ananth

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Welcome back. Should anyone have the ability to provide a day-by-day or week-by-week account and pictures of a growing farm, I would be happy to have it posted here. It would be most convincing to all that see.

You are lucky sir to have the time and to be able to use it productively, it would be great if you can post your reviews of the books. I am hoping we can have some agri book reviews on the forum too.

Marigold and castor come to my mind.

Dear ananth1946,

I basically follow PalekarJi’s methods, one needs to customise depending on the crop and soil. I just don’t follow his methods alone, anything good that I see, I accept and try to put into practice.

Have been impressed with Bhaskar Save’s methods.I also do composting and little bit of Vrishayurveda. The idea is to enrich your soil,plants and the growing atmosphere.

Palekar does recommend a few combinations like agni-astram, brahmastram etc for pests an diseases, they are effective too. One has to do all the groundwork , get the system into fair shape before trying them.Using it without adhering to the other practices may not be effective. Will share with you the stage by stage approach soon.

Also please do go easy on neem Though it’s an excellent repellent, continuous use can affect the potency of the plant. The plant can get ‘frozen’ that is getting into dormant stage for a period after the spray.Apart from repelling pests neem also affects cell formation an growth.

The magic solution hat works is Cow’s urine, from a native Indian breed cow. Not only does it deter pests , but also acts as a growth promoter/ disinfectant. It’s basically a 3-in 1 spray, that you cannot go wrong with!

regards
cowherd

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is it wise to use food products like pulses flour, gud, milk, ghee, etc., to grow food organically. imagine what would be the amount of these food products needed to grow food in a country where there is acute shortage of food and even good quality food.
most methods of organic farming do not get passed on this count.
are there materials available for making compost, vermi compost on a large scale requirement with the country as a whole unit?
is that much amount of cow urine available to meet the country’s whole requirement as a unit?

Hello all,

I have a heard a lot about Natural Farming.I want to know economics in Rs Thousand per acre under traditional crops like wheat,rice,dal etc and commercial crops like Banana,Papaya and Haldi etc.

Regrads

kUSUM

Dear ananth1946,

One more point regarding Neem Usage:

Neem is essentially an IGR…meaning Insect Growth Regulator.

It has substances that essentially interfere with the Pest’s Breeding Cycle…something like making the females abort and the males low in donor count. This will result in the next or successive generations’ Population Numbers reducing. Neem does not directly “kill” or tell them to go away ( although a small number of invading insects might find the smell and taste too “yucky” and decide to leave for greener pastures!

Once we understand the nature of the world around us and how it operates, the whole thing suddenly appears to be “common sense”.

Dear Cowherd,
Would you explain the “3-in-1” part of Cowurine?
When to spray and at what concentrations…i grow vegetables in a Polyhouse.

Regards,
P

Dear All:

Thanks for all the clarifications about the effects of neem based sprays - begining to understand!
On the use of cow urine, I tried it , but unfortunately I was not told that it has to be of Indian breed! I used it with 1:3 dilution (Jersey cow urine) and that did not seem to work. I will try with Indian cow urine. But just some doubts:

  1. All urine would be a good source of nitrogen (urea) and so beneficial, is it not? I ask this as I have a good source of Jersey cow urine but only a limited supply source of Indian cow urine. Why is it that only Indian cow’s urine works?

  2. Chandra mentioned that planting marigold or castor plants along the boundary acts to divert insects and pests somewhat. Has anyone tried this and can I get feedback on efficacy?

  3. In natural farming, there is no need for any external fertilisation - except for making up mineral loss which should normally be made up by the earthworms. Then what is the role of vermicompost or any other farmyard manure? But in general, it is observed (though I have no experience of farming to comment!) that fertilising increases output in the short run. Why?

  4. According to Sri Palekar’s methods, the earthworms needed for bringing up the minreals from the subsoil (beyond 20in below ground level) are always available in the soil. Is this true of all soils? Could introducing additional earthworms help improve the soil conditioning? Where does one get these worms for introducing into the farm?

I eagerly await further input from “cowherd” about the other methods and preparations for effective natural farming.
On vermicomposting, I had downloaded an article which I am uploading, if it could be of use to others.

For Phaedrus:

Very pleased to note that you do farming in polyhouses at Ooty - is that correct? I am most interested in learning about cultivation in polyhouses.

a)Where do I get started on info for this?
b) Maybe, you could start a separate thread (like this on natural farming) for a coutinued exchange of ideas on polyhouse farming, so that many others could contribute?
c) any details from you would be most welcome.

Regards
Ananth

There are several other articles to which I could give references if others need more inputs.
Vermicomposting ICRISAT.pdf (517 KB)

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