Is Organic Farming / Natural Farming practical?

Jasmine · May 25, 2014, 3:15am

“During the course of their journey, the duo discovered that organic farmers were not a minority. “There are so many of them out there, but they are not aware of each other’s existence and experience. If only they all came together and shared techniques, the world will be a better place,” says Deepan.”

thehindu.com/features/metrop … 321934.ece

whiteClover · May 25, 2014, 4:26am

came across this org CSA that’s providing the farmers for various aspects of sustainable agriculture
including marketing support
thehindu.com/news/cities/Vij … 930736.ece

http://www.csa-india.org

About CSA video (only in Telugu; no subtitles)
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L038b8swd3g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L038b8swd3g[/url]

Jasmine · May 25, 2014, 5:18am

thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp … 896768.ece

I like this model. I think many farmers out there never used chemicals and fertilizers since birth, never gave into commercial crops, they continued to farm the right way on private pieces of land for personal use, then sold privately to friends and neighbors themselves. This model from the article supports this idea of personally selling their own food to others.

Prash · May 25, 2014, 10:32am

Thank u Jasmine for the wonderful videos about Dharanis working

Jasmine · May 25, 2014, 12:19pm

Prash, you are so sweet, thanks.

Since you are going to visit Bhaskar Save farm thought you would like this. I love his thoughts on water, just use drip irrigation.

savesanghavi.com

Mr.Save’ discovered that any farming methods has only five basic principal and nature help us in all.

Tilling : The armies of insects like earthworms and ants, by their tunneling action, till the soil efficiently. In fact, they are better than tractors because, tractors eat oil and disturb the soil and environment too. After the initial tilling, earth worms ants and small insects in the soil do the tilling. Earthworms dig deep holes in the land and comes out for excreta. These excreta contain Manganese, Nitrogen etc., which are required for the growth of the plants & trees. Ants built a network in the soil. Through these holes and network air passes into the soil and during the rainy season water is easily percolated deep down to the root level through these hole. This will help to increase the level of water in the ground.
Manure : By the ‘Buffet System’ for the soil, only nutrient used in farm is dead leaves, cow dung and organic waste matter from the other houses in the village. The farmers best friends earthworms convert this organic waste into inorganic manure. When nature provide these earthworms and manure free of cost, why should we show our foolishness by purchasing chemical & fertilizers?
Water : Most farmers tend to over use water, suffocating the roots and watering near the trunk makes the roots consequently weak. In ‘ The Platform and Trench System of Irrigation’ and ‘Croton Indicator Plant’, in which irrigation is done 12 feet away from the trees, thus water requirement gets reduced to 80%. This OFS will help to increase the water level in tube wells without any expenses and efforts.
Crop protection : Uses natural biological pest control. For Instant, Neem, Curry Patta, Tulasi and Cow Urine solution are insects repellent. Red Ants, Spiders and Frogs would kill, eat more than their weight of insects in a day. Owls hunt rats and many birds play there duty. In fact all the ‘Holly Books’ says that ‘We all are soldiers and not the owners of the earth and our main duty is to protect the earth’, so ‘Live & Let Live Others’. So in nature cycles, why to commit sins by using poisonous pesticides? For such sins and interferes of God’s natural cycles one have to face the consequences.
Weeds and Grass : farmers think of weeds as nuisance and enemy, in fact they are nature’s blessing. Plants roots have the unique ability to convert atmospheric nitrogen into vital nutrients which benefits other plants too. Beside they ‘Clothe’ the earth, aiding the growth of soil enhancing bacteria and stop the water evaporation. So do not uproot them, only cut and feed to the animals, to get OFS material, milk and strength for the OX for transport.

youtube.com/watch?app=deskto … 6z6-GD2POY

raagaorganics · May 25, 2014, 12:19pm

Dear Whiteclover,

Thank you, for sharing the information about CSA, the work they have done & are doing seems to be beyond human.

Pesticides are the root cause of most of the problems in Agriculture, decreasing or stopping their usage may not go well with the manufacturers & the dealers selling them but it is the need of the hour. Do you know that every dealer has a minimum of 50% margin on most of the pesticides. This is where they are making a boat load of money, whereas on fertilizers they are making just about 10% or even less.

Infact these dealers practice very dubious tactics to get more business, when an innocent farmer approaches them and requests a pesticide, the dealer gives him one that is relatively cheap but will give him the maximum profit although that may not be the right one for the particular problem. The farmer tries it out and comes back to the same dealer complaining to him that it has not worked. Now this dealer acts very clever and points the finger at the farmer itself saying “You did not describe the problem exactly” or “You did not tell me that it was so severe”. He makes him believe that there is a wonderful pesticide that is very powerful and will wipeout the pest, but it is costly, the farmer succumbs as he cannot leave his crop at the mercy of this pest as he has already invested considerably.
I have met so many farmers that have spent close to Rs. 5,000 per acre on just pesticides. If we can stop this madness it will solve 50% of the problems in Agriculture. This is the very reason I have pointed out in my earlier posts also that fighting against Chemical Pesticides is more of an urgent need as compared to Fertilizers.

thanks,
Madhav

Chandra · May 26, 2014, 4:36am

Moderator note: Jasmine’s account has been closed on Jasmine’s request. Some of the post exchanges that amounted to personal attacks have been removed, with more cleanup of the thread to be done shortly. Back on topic now.

Viks · May 26, 2014, 6:49am

are u kidding me ?

wait till Aman finds this post

Prash · May 26, 2014, 7:02am

Hello Chandra,
I dont know what post did Jasmine stated that he/she was banned but he provided good information to a person like me. A request to reconsider your decision please.

Chandra · May 26, 2014, 7:03am

Oh well, welcome back and you missed all the action and conspiracy theories on this thread, to which FarmNest was supposed to be a party as well.

P.S.: Jasmine was not banned but he/she sent us repeated messages to deactivate his/her account, because he/she was told by someone this forum had spies from the chemical industry, and since she/he thought moderators were siding with another member on the thread (we did ask him/her to take a decision with a cool head). He/she also made personal attacks on another member and allegations without substantiation, but we had not gotten to the point of acting on it yet. He/she is free to come back at his/her discretion. Thanks.

Viks · May 26, 2014, 2:48pm

yea… i heard too…
spies from chemical industry… teehee…
common… who has the time to do all this…

theres a lot to follow in this thread… will take time to catch up.
dont want to end up asking repetitive questions…

vvk

whiteClover · May 26, 2014, 3:23pm

Agree with your views.
I was pretty impressed with their (www.csa-india.org) work/achievements too & a bit surprised that I didn’t come across them until now.

On a side note, it’s unfortunate that Jasmine chose to leave. Has been a very very active participant & valuable contributor.

Maybe our forum is turning out to be a threat to the corporates!!

raagaorganics · May 27, 2014, 5:20am

I hope Jasmine rethinks her / his decision about leaving the forum, his/her posts were quite educative and I had learned about few organisations & people that I have not know earlier. I feel it was a hasty decision to leave the forum and we are going to miss his / her views in this forum.

Thanks,
Madhav

HEMASHIVA · June 10, 2014, 10:43am

Hi,

Swamy, cowherd

I am new to the farming, i have chosen to do the natural farming because it is environment friendly.

i have decided to do natural farming without using any kind of chemicals. i have patience to fail n number of times, but never follow chemical farming.

i need guidance from u guys.

my agricultural land is about 7 acres, it was left plane for last 8 years. now i am planning to grow ragi, jowar and the cow grass on it. after seeing the postings of swamy,cowherd, i really got inspired to be a farmer.

my questions to u is,

since it is a plane land how do i begin with.
how do i sow the seed
do i need to do beejamrutha for the above said seeds.
should i do the transplantation
what kind of fertilizers i can use before and after the seed is sown.

please advice me. if i have to do anything more please let me know.

thanks for chandra for the initiation of the topic.

regards,

hemashiva

HEMASHIVA · June 10, 2014, 10:45am

Hello mr Swamy,

i am inspired by the postings made by u and mr cowherd.
i want to follow natural farming. i need ur suggestions and help as i am new to the field. I have a land of about 7 acres in mysore. it is a dry land, it is been left as it is for past 8 years. after reading all the postings in farmnest i feel i have to go in for farming(natural farming). i have a patience to follow step by step process what ever it takes , but i want it to do only natural farming. i have few questions for u regarding the crops i am going to grow.

since it is a dry land how do i start with, should i have to put any kind of natural manure before we sow the seeds
2.should i do beejamrutha for ragi and jowar.
3.do i need to do mulching.
4.should i do the transplantation for ragi and jowar.
we r basically intending to grow rain fed crops, is it ok to grow ragi and jowar.

ur answers means a lot to me since i am seriously want to get into natural farming.

regards
hema.

Ronnie · July 7, 2014, 11:55am

Great discussions! Thanks a lot everyone. Sometime the posts had an aggressive tone but Mods did a good work. At times the discussion veered off-topic and was a debate between Natural/ZB farming and Chemical farming. It would be good if anyone who has practiced both can share their experiences. It would be great to find out if for the same crop in the same farm - yield, quality, pests, revenue, profit, input costs, water usage, etc. went up or down.
Cheers,
Ronnie

Prakruthi · July 19, 2014, 6:35pm

cowherd:

Namasthe,
    Good topic. My impressions based on farming experiences. 
(1) How practical is organic farming?

Depends on how you look at organic farming. To most people, especially the ones outside the farming world, it means farming without applying chemical inputs and instead using the organic inputs available in the market. This is actually using the modern chemical farming model, striking out the chemical inputs in the equation and replacing them with the organic inputs available in the market. Well, I can assure you that this kind of organic farming with an NPK mentality is a sure shot recipe for disaster. Frankly the term ‘Organic’ these days serves more towards glamoursing farming and it’s products on the shelf than being of help to the farmers. I would prefer to cite another type of organic farming, i.e. - natural farming. This farming draws inspiration from nature, is sustainable and eco friendly and is done with minimum interference from the farmer. Here the role of the farmer would be that of a catalyst in aiding nature and plant growth. This type of farming is practical and cost effective. The expenditure incurred on natural farming would only be about 30-40% of that chemical farming, since there are no artificial inputs and all the inputs are prepared in-house. The only major cost would be the cost of labour. Once the farmer has good understanding of the different aspects of his farm, natural farming can be practical and effective.

(2) Is it for small farms alone or extensible to large farms?

Large or small holding, the underlying principles behind natural farming will be the same. Of course, smaller farms will have the advantage of being easier to manage, but that does not in anyway mean it cannot be applied to larger farms. Larger farms have their advantages of economies of large scale operation, branding etc. The methods of application, strategy and implementation needs to be altered to meet the requirements of larger farms.

(3) Can higher yields be produced by organic farming over conventional methods?

In short term crops like vegetables, paddy, banana etc natural farming has yielded crops comparable to that of chemical farming with more consistency and quality. Natural farming has quicker results on short-term crops. In the long –term crops, I have seen natural farming produce upto 85-90 % of the crop on conventional methods, again with much higher quality and considerably lower costs. To get to this level it takes 3-5 years of ground –work along with lots of patience, dedication and perseverance.

Before going to organic/inorganic comparisons, it is essential that one has deeper understanding of the whole picture.

Left to nature, soil has the inherent capacity to manufacture nutrients and provide them to the plants it supports. Continuous chemical application for years has destroyed the balance of the soil, leaving it depleted. Chemical application, apart from depleting the soil and causing it’s degeneration also destroys the most important ‘live’ part of soil- the micro-organisms. It is these micro organisms that generate and supply nutrition to the soil, thereby enriching he soil; they also convert the nutrients into forms that can be readily absorbed by plants. Once this in-built feeding system has been disturbed, and the plants are used artificial nutrition, it takes a good 3-5 years to restore the system and get the plants off this dependency habit. Plants are creatures of habit as much as humans are. If you disbelieve me, kindly try this, have 2 potted plants placed in the open sun. Water Plant A daily and Plant B once in 3 days. After a month, cut-off the water for plant A, within a day or two it will wilt, whereas plant B will remain unaffected for 3 days.

The same applies to plants and soils which are given frequent doses of artificial nutrients, the moment they are cut-off, the plant may face difficulty in adjusting to the new conditions. This is why the 3-5 year period for converted organic farms to attain productivity. But, very few farmers have the staying power to withstand this. Within a couple of years their productivity goes low, they suffer losses and the revert back to chemical farming. The practical thing would be for the farmer to convert 1/10th or 1/5th of his holding to natural farming. For those who try to farm in fresh/dry/ neglected soils, it will easier, however restoring the soil still remains the important task.

In long term crops, I have observed that after a period of 3-5 Years, natural farming yields about 85-90% yield of chemical farming, this 85-90 % in relation to the volume or quantity only. The quality, (parameters like the taste, aroma, nutrition, anti-oxidant count etc) will be much superior to the chemical farmed one. Also the yield from natural farming remains fairly consistent; there won’t be fluctuations in yield as there is in chemical farming. The yields projected by chem. Farming are difficult or next to impossible to achieve on consistent basis. For e.g. – The figures projected under chemical fed modern agriculture for paddy crop is 1250 kg per acre, for arecunaut 1250 kg per acre. This figure is the highest crop achieved once in 3-4 years, this IS NOT the standard crop for 3 years. So to assume that these figures are achievable each and every year is a myth. Can anyone achieve this yield on trot for 5 years? NO

I have personally known cases where natural faming in paddy yields 1000-1250 KG per year, the average of 4 years would be about 900-KG/acre. Likewise I know an arecunaut farmer who turned organic 5 years ago. Earlier the he used to extract a maximum of 1250 kg per acre. After turning organic his yield dropped to 300kg, subsequently went upto 500 kg. Now in the 5th year he gets 1000 kg per acre with minimum inputs

Apart from this the cost of production incurred in natural farming would only be roughly 30-40% of that of chemical farming and it consumes only roughly 25% of the water that chem. Farming does. Chemical farming comes with a lot of hidden costs that are not obvious to people. For instance the aspects of depletion and restoration of soil. It is very difficult to assess the cost of these. Let us examine this on a primary level – It has been openly acknowledged by scientists that chemical farming soils need constant correction of Ph levels in the soil. There is no escaping this. Take the case of land under chemical cultivation of cash crops, every 2 years one tonne of lime/per acre is recommended to correct the pH balance of the Soil and maintain production levels. The cost o this as of today can be taken as 1000 kgs @ Rs20/- per kg every 2-3 years which works out to 6000-10000 Rs per year per acre. Has this cost of restoration been included in the cost of production? Similarly, micro-organism multiplication, constant chemical and pesticide application results in depletion of micro-organisms and imbalances in the soil. The recommendations from the chemical agri consultants are to culture the micro-organisms in your soil multiply it and put it back to soil? These costs of foolishness are never taken into account in arriving at the cost of production.

(4)Are the farm inputs in the market really effective?

Avoid them at all costs. I am not saying all inputs in the market are bad, of course there are good ones, but they come at a price; and at the price they come at, they are not value for money, especially branded inputs available in the market. Suppose you buy a branded input worth Rs.100/- , the value it may give to your farm cannot be beyond Rs.35/-, always remember the manufacturer will make a 100 – 200% profit and apart from that the freight charges and tax. Would you choose to buy your raw material paying a premium and allow it to eat into your profits or would you like to source it locally, that is have it in-house? Always prepare your own inputs; never think of buying anything, especially branded stuff.

Sorry, long post.

Indeed it is a very good post.Now the situation is like that,with this much post, nobody will understand the real meaning of Natural/organic farming difference.
I appreciate for your time.
Thanks once again.
Prakruthi
Srinivashyd01@gmail.com

Prakruthi · July 19, 2014, 7:06pm

ananth1946:

Dear All:

I am a recent entrant to this field and this forum, but am amazed at the wealth of info that is being exchanged! Special thanks to Cowherd, Chandra & nandanan. I will be eagerly looking for further posts - particularly on the control of pests/insects.

I have recently retired from business/corporate life (age 65), have no prior knowledge of farming or agriculture, but am interested in making a success of organic (now natural, as clarified by cowherd!) farming. I have 2 small plots of land outside Hyderabad (3 acres & 2 acres) and I have started fruit and vegetable farming. I am doing it as a hobby and I can sustain the continuous cash outflow during the learning period, but want to:
a) learn enough to make it a viable operation.
b) the basic objective is to be able to demonstrate to other local villagers nearby that this kind of farming/agriculture is a more profitable proposition in the meduim to long term.
c) strongly believe that “natural” is the way to go. If I cannot make my venture financially viable, then how do I convince other less “formally” educated neighbours? (I am a Mech Engg from IIT with a PhD in Mathematical Economics/Finance and have a reasonably successful business and career record!).

Being active for the past 6 months in this activity, I have started a vermicompost setup in my farm, and presently use only neem extracts for pest control. My first total failure with this was when I had planted Tur dal on a small plot of about 1000 sq yds. (there are various other vegetables on the rest of the plot). The plants grew very well and flowering was excellent and pod formation seemed visibly OK. But insects attacked which did not respond to the usual concentration of the neem spray. The total experiment was a failure - no output!

I would need constant hand holding to take me forward and I hope I can get it. Let me assure all that I do not intend to give up even if I face failure several times!

Following this thread with great interest.

Ananth1946

Hello Anath Sir,
You will definitely get success. No-doubt on that and you will be inspiration for any body else.
Wishing all the best.
Prakruthi
Srinivashyd01@gmail.com

tejaram · November 12, 2014, 3:40pm

Dear Chandraji and Cowherd ji

We have lands in Rajasthan at two different locations separated by 60 kms. One location is fully desert and another is semi-desert. We depend upon rain god only for the crops at both the locations.

This Semi-desert land has unique quality. It swells when it rains and when it is wet.
Heavy Animals, like cows, feet sink into soil by say 4" to over 6" and water absorption takes longer time than the desert land. We have very salty water some 50 to 100 ft. below the ground level. Pachpadra Salt lake and Luni river are just 15 km away from our land. Climate is very hot in summer and very cold in winter.

We never use chemical fertiliser for improving the crops. How to improve seasonal crops here with your Organic farming. Farmers clean the land with ploughing disc well in advance and the land remain uncovered for months in summer heat. They even burn the whatever bushes they cut to clean the land.

Your guidance will be of immense help to local farmers.

With Best Regards
Tejaram Choudhary

godisgreat96 · November 18, 2014, 3:59am

Dear cowherd,

I HAVE THE SAME OPINION AS MR.DEEPAK. Toady i am reading this subject the credit goes to the discussion had between yourself and Mr.Chandra. I would also like to be intouch with your goodself my email id is get2meat@gmail.com Kindly give me suggestions regarding intercropping in Jumblin plants & Gauva Plants which are just 3 months old.